Wednesday, January 23, 2008

SEEING GREEN-SEEING BLUE


Hi, metta hallem/t,

What does azizaw mean s Tshawit? It depends on the community. Green for some, blue for others.Why is that? What is the source of confusion in the colour system of Tashawit? Well, there might be an answer in Lameen 's piece Colour vision and language shift .

What do you think? What is the situation in Tumzabit, Taqbaylit, Tarifit...etc?

Until next time, qimet d'i lehna.

11 comments:

ziri said...

Azul a uma .

Déclaration d’Alger (en 2004) sur la diversité
culturelle et la sauvegarde des identités
et des patrimoines des peuples

Un bon lien ici :
www.isesco.org.ma/confSpec/MinistresCulture/Documents/D%C3%A9claration%20Alger.pdf

Mais l'Algérie a tjs fait de grandes déclarations tout en continuant à laisser mourir la culture Amazigh, faute d'avoir pue l'assassiner auparavant.
Le lien en entier :
http://www.isesco.org.ma/confSpec/MinistresCulture
/Documents/D%C3%A9claration%20Alger.pdf

Afifay said...

Azul

In Tumz'abt (and not tumzabit please : 'u' means 'son of' like the gaelic 'O' and 'Mzab' is
the name of the land, 't ... t' is for the feminine) :

azizaw :
1° blue (color) (talking of the sky, etc.)
2° immature, unripe (i.e. english & arabic 'green') (talking of fruits, etc.)

adali : green, originating from the root [DL], which gives meanings like : shade, cover, vegetation, screen, brooding.

Two tentative suggestions :
- The etymology of the word 'azizaw' might shed some light on its authentic signification : blue or green. Doesn't it look like a factitive from : asizaw ? If this were the case, what would the root [ZW] give ?
- The pressure of the Arabic language might have forced the 2nd meaning of azizaw to become associated with the color 'green' (as it is in arabic & english) leading then to two possible scenarios :

> either the word azizaw keeps its (supposedly) first meaning (blue) in which case another word has to be dedicated to the color green. It happens to be from Arabic in Kwarandjie and from Tamazight in Tumz'abt (adali).
> or the word azizaw takes the imposed meaning (green) in which case another word has to be dedicated to the color blue. It happens to be also from Arabic (at first sight) in Kwarandjie.

It would also be interesting to know how Arabic speakers in North Africa qualify an immature fruit : z'reg or xd'er ?

Finally, Lameen's suggestion that our ancestors didn't distinguish between green and blue (vegetation and sky) is humorous.

Talwit

shawi yegguma said...

>In Tumz'abt (and not tumzabit please : 'u' means 'son of' like the gaelic 'O' and 'Mzab' is
the name of the land, 't ... t' is for the feminine)

Sorry, I'm a slow learner :)

You raised some excellent points!

Thank you very much for your contribution, seg ul!

BTW, what does afifay mean? Just curious.

Qim d'i lehna.

Aclim d ibbwi wadu said...

Di teqbaylit:

Azegzaw:
1) vert => couleur
2) bleu => couleur
s'emploie generalement pour vert
et parfois pour bleu
Amidadi: s'emploie aussi pour bleu.

2) pas mur (not ripe)=> fruit, legume

Lameen Souag said...

In my (Dellys) Arabic, "unripe" is xder, not zreg.

Many languages all around the world, like Japanese, Vietnamese, Pashto, and Maya, have a single word meaning both "blue" and "green", not, as Afifay suggests, because they can't see the difference, but because they don't care about it, any more than we care about the difference between, say, maroon and magenta, or olive green and fluorescent green. It would be entirely normal for Tamazight to have done the same.

Kabyle amidadi, of course, is from Arabic midad. I think Tumzabt adali is found in Tuareg as well, but I don't have any libraries handy at the moment.

Afifay said...

Azul

afifay adj.m. (pl. ififayen, f. tafifayt, f.pl. tififayin)
Translucent, which lets (diffused) light through.

This term is usually used in weaving when the fibers are not poked enough with the heavy metal comb, t'acca (or tad'ecca in tacawit ?) : one can see through them. It is a weaving flaw usually perpetrated by novice weavers.

Azet't'a-nnem d afifay, your weaving is translucent (as a reprimand)

BTW, what does yegguma mean ? Just curious.

Talwit

shawi yegguma said...

Thank you guys!

>Kabyle amidadi, of course, is from Arabic midad

Midad as in ink? If so, why blue?

>afifay adj.m. (pl. ififayen, f. tafifayt, f.pl. tififayin)
Translucent, which lets (diffused) light through.

Very poetic!

>the heavy metal comb, t'acca (or tad'ecca in tacawit ?)

I'm not sure. Perhaps someone else can confirm.

>BTW, what does yegguma mean ? Just curious.

yegguma : refuses(netta/he)

Refuses to forget; refuses to accept the hogra; refuses the injustice...etc

Again, Tanemmirt to you all.

Aclim d ibbwi wadu said...

Amidadi is not actually, that used for blue. Applies for certain objects but not others. Yersa-d tabluzt ttamidadit. Not quite sure when and what. The absence of a specific word for blue has always puzzled me. Never liked azegzaw for blue. Eh what the hec it works! What is the word for blue in algerian arabic?

shawi yegguma said...

>The absence of a specific word for blue has always puzzled me.

Am d'aya, same here :)

>What is the word for blue in algerian arabic?

Zrag.

Aclim d ibbwi wadu said...

Tanemmirt.
(just as recently a 15 years ago Tanemmirt was unheard of in kabyle.
Today it is as natural and common as anything) sorry for de-railing...

Bryce said...

Very interesting discussion I must say, it's almost hard to formulate an exact opinion.

Here's a great website in Taqbaylit that you might enjoy:

Taqbaylit wiki browser

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